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Roots of serbian spirit on north terrace
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УлтрасЛондон
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PostPosted: 09 Feb 2007 09:20    Post subject: Reply with quote

robbie slater wrote:
@UL

I tend to agree with the civil war term. a civil war is defined as a war between political factions or regions within the same country. or a war between citizens of the same state. there were 2 factions fighting against each other during ww2. that's why I think it was a civil war. I believe we got used to not calling that a civil war as that's the way we were taught in school. you know the story, partizans were the only one fighting germans, chetniks were germanl colaborators blah blah blah. farkin' commis.

on the other hand, you may argue that it's not a civil war because the country was occupied by germans so there was no country at the time. but still, there was a 'conflict' between 2 factions and according to the definition it's a civil war. that's the way I see it. could be wrong.


My argument is that the communists have abolished being Serbian and became Yugoslav. It was definitely a civil war but some people take it for granted and talk about how Serb was killing a Serb - that is where I do not agree, as I do not believe the partisans were Serbs but Soviet puppets - internationalists - Yugoslavs - being against the Church and king. (in Kingdom of Yugoslavia, there were Serbs, not Yugoslavs)
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Last edited by УлтрасЛондон on 09 Feb 2007 09:37; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: 09 Feb 2007 09:36    Post subject: Reply with quote

alex-gate7london wrote:
one thing i want to ask is, what version of the history are you taught in school? are your textbooks/teachers biased towards the chetnik or communist side? are tito/mihailovic/milosevic portrayed in a positive or negative light? how is the war in the 90's talked about? and if there is a national curriculum, do teachers stray from it to put their own political opinion forward?
also how about the media, the world media turned against serbia and portrayed you as criminals during and after the war in the 90's, did the serbian mainstream media fold under the pressure and fall in line with the view that the goverment were all war criminals? in essence i feel croatia won the P.R. aspect of the war and that was vital in international support and in the outcome of the war.


Unfortunately I have time to answer just the first question, but have no doubt that soon someone will answer the latter.
I started primary school in 1980 (year that Tito died) and good part of our history lessons were about WW2 and partisans Vs collaborators and Germans. According to that chetniks were same as ustashe and the only good guys were Tito’s partisans. The propaganda was such that no one dared to question and impact was such that people still believe, even with all the evidence and logic. Generations were piosoned and it was wise not to question, otherwise you'll have "problems" - wont get employment, education, got sacked, prison, police questioning,...
Tito’s portrait was in every classroom, now in my primary school in 7th or 8th year they’ve taken his portrait down. (I was not a bad pupil – we just go 8 years to primary school) That was an exception, (head master of the school was a normal person – mother of famous Serbian singer of the time – Saper), but when I went to high school, Tito’s portrait was still on the wall. (I took him down and put him by the bin, it was to big to get into bin, replacing his picture with Stojkovic’s – our best footballer, now president).
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PostPosted: 09 Feb 2007 11:53    Post subject: Reply with quote

Most of the evidence was destroyed about partizans colobration with ustashe and nazis of that period by ruling comunists.. For croats/ustase it was the best solution, so they did not have to pay for any war crimes that they commited, etc.. And the the whole "oficial history" of that period (2WW) was writen by 9 "famous" communist historians.. Wich is a load of bull shit.. How stupid it all was, you can see that they even wrote that rex (titos dog) saved titos life when someone trew a bomb at tito, he jumped on his owner..

But they could not destroy the arhives and documents in England, France, Germany, America, etc.. Countries wich later gave azil to all Chetik warriors, because of those documents and facts.. Even after any truth or movement of any sebian intellectuals were hunted even abroad, and many killed by secret police of the titos regime.
Chetnik movement was one of the first antifa organised movements in occupied europe, the big part of official army of the kingdom, wich did not want to except the capitulation of our land, the size of the rebelion was only comparable in poland in that time (1941).. "Capitulation, hm that word does not exist in my vocabulary!" were the words of General Dragoljub Mihailovic - Cica Draza, and organised his troops to fight the enemy, right after the (croat) Vlatek Maceks goverment of kingdom signed the capitulation of the goverment.
How tito could win the war against chetniks.. Until 1944 the Chetniks had received only 30 tons of weaponry from the British in 3 years, while the Partisans had got 18,000 tons in one year, after 1944 when the agriment Stalin-Roosevelt-Churchil was singht (on Jalta I think). Tito turned many of those British guns against the Chetniks.

So for us to support any partizan is out of the question! Wink
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PostPosted: 09 Feb 2007 20:01    Post subject: Reply with quote

In WWII there were actually three sides; nazis, western "democracy", and soviet communists.
Nazis had their puppets in some militias in Serbia like Zbor, partizans were soviet army in Serbia from the day they uprised(I think 7.july), and Chetniks were only army that cared and fought interests of Serbian people. They started rebelion on 13.may 1941. without any foreign support(partisans waited for german attack on sssr). Western allies started to support chetniks untill they saw that communist will do anything, not caring about suffering of serbian civilians who payed biggest price for communist "actions" just to get weapons and equipment from allies.
Chetniks were pro-democratic forces, but firstly patriots working in interests of serbian nation.
red knight its not quite true that red army entered yugoslavia, just Serbia. Tito didnt let them to enter croatia because he didnt want soviet revenge. Ustasa "crna legija"(black legion) was one of most cruel nazi troop in Eastern front, they were doing awfull crimes against russian civilians so soviet revenge would probably be the same.
In other hand he asked britons and americans for bombing of Serbian towns. I am not sure but I think that Belgrade, Nis and Niksic(now in montenegro)were bombed, maybe some more towns. Excuse was "german army targets" in those towns, but bombs striked only civilian buildings causing deaths of thousend innocent Serbs. Maybe few germans get killed. Many eyewitnesses say that "allie" bombing in Belgrade '44 was worse than german '41.
Those are sad stories from serbian history, and no one can convince me that comunists were good for Serbia. Many honest people went to partisans just to fight for freedom, but they were all seduced. They had no real power to run things, just to be cannon fodder in hands of tito and few of his nearest comrades.
Worst thing is that they managed to destroy serbian unity by separating us on partisans and chetniks.
Chetniks losed war because they were honest, loyal, and just simple soldiers fighting for freedom, with true and opened heart, while partisans were firstly politicians, fighting for party, lying, using filthy and unhonest methods just to come on head of state after war.
Many Chetnik forces continued fight in Serbia after war, hiding in forests and mountains. Some chetnik guerrillas from my grandfathers village were destroyed in late fourties. There's also a story that in maybe '48 they kidnapped local bus, entered village and killed partisan commesar and few others.
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PostPosted: 09 Feb 2007 20:23    Post subject: Reply with quote

After the war every person officer from the communist partizans jugoslav national army, had to support partizan fc.. This was the rule because partizan was their military club, and it stayed like that till the eighties.. So partizan stayed in that time sort of yugoslav club, among wich supporters were next to serbian fans, many albanian, muslims and croat (one of the most famous was franjo tudjman wich was also a president of partizan fc as well as croatia the country, general bobetko etc..)..
Intresting fact was also in the '90s in order to reduce the serbian image of red star fans, police on the gates to the stadium did not allow in many ocasions to bring serbian flags into the north side.. And on partizan they allowed (partizan officials were close linked with goverment of milosevic wich did not do even one good thing for serbs). There on north tribune on some derbies in that time was used and emerged "chetniks" banner.. Wink
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PostPosted: 10 Feb 2007 02:39    Post subject: Reply with quote

you should also know that Chetniks are heritage of Hajduk's(brigants) and Uskok's-rebeled guerilla forces of serbian people against turkish ocupation wich lasted for 500 years.
Serbia was conquered, but Serbs never give up fight. After our empire fall, our people run to hills and mountains. They never accepted islam and turkish way of life. In those mountains there were organised maybe first guerrilla units in worlds history - Hajduci who were fighting turks, albanians and islamised part of serbs. Their spirit continued to live in Chetniks in serbo-turkish wars, balkan wars, and in wwII.
Uskoks were operating in Venetian and Austrian parts of what we call Srpska Krajina(todays croatia and Republika Srpska).
Also many historic documents tell us that serbian and slav people in times of roman empire were tribes without real army. They fought like guerrillas against roman and byzant empire. So we could say that serbs always have army-our army is our nation, we dont need to have organised units,officers,strategy. Nation is army.
Cheta means troop, small military unit. Chetnik is member of cheta. Their spirit, the spirit of Serbian freedom fighters that survived for centuries lives in Delije. Red Star gathered us, Serbia keeps us togheter.
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PostPosted: 10 Feb 2007 10:02    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ultra klan wrote:
Most of the evidence was destroyed about partizans colobration with ustashe and nazis of that period by ruling comunists..

Most of it yes,but not all.
This is very interesting link http://www.pogledi.co.yu/galerija/piu/index.php
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PostPosted: 10 Feb 2007 11:48    Post subject: Reply with quote

first off all i must say that i am very happy that our greek brothers are interested in our culture and history.when i say that 50 years of communist rule was worst than 500 years under turkish occupation is that serbia recover and become strong country in relative short time which we proved in a ww1,to completly recover after the communist rule is going to past lot of time.
one of the main factors under the turkish occupation as ultras london allready mentioned was our ortodox church.
serbian priests were going from village to village from house to house, telling the people stories about kosovo battle,about knez lazar,about mighty dusan, about serbian glory before the turks. by doing that they were keeping hopes allive that better times for serbian people will come and that serbia will be strong once again.
tito and communist party understood this well. to break serbian spirit they knew that they need to destroy our church. large number of serbian priests were killed, while the other people in yugoslavia had no problem with exppresing their religion for serbs was forbiden.
propaganda aggainst everything that was in connection with our history and our church was very strong, so they try to put in people mind that our complete history before ww2 was very bad and that we should be ashamed off.
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hools
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PostPosted: 10 Feb 2007 16:36    Post subject: Reply with quote

FIRST OF ALL WE ARE INTERESTED FOR SERBIA BECAUSE WE ARE BROTHERS.AND LIKE GOOD BROTHERS DO,WE MUST KNOW THE MORE WE CAN ABOUT YOU BECAUSE TRUE BROTHERS DO THAT.WE MUST NOT BE BROTHERS JUST IN WORDS...LIKE SOME OTHER FANS..
WE ALWAYS WERE "FRIENDLY" NATION SO ALWAYS THERE WAS A SYMPATHY FOR SERBS...THE ONLY BALKANS WHO ARE NOT HOSTILE WITH US.AND THE MAJORITY OF GREEK PEOPLE LIKE SERBS.

SECONDLY I UNDERSTAND THE ROLE OF PRIESTS DURING THE TURKISH OCCUPATION,BECAUSE THE SAME HAPPEND HERE DURING THE TURKISH OCCUPATION.PERSONALLY I DONT AGREE WITH THE METHODS OF MODERN GREEK CHURCH BUT I HAVE RESPECT FOR OLD PRIESTS WHO KEPT US FIGHTING TURKS AND DIED FOR OUR COUNTRY.

AT LAST I WANT TO SAY THAT TITO WAS A FUCKING SCUM WHO TRIED TO DESTROY THE KINGDOM OF YUGOSLAVIA AND CAUSED MANY PROBLEMS TO GREECE TOO.HE TRIED TO MAKE SERBIAN PEOPLE TO FORGET THEIR HISTORY AND BE ASAMED FOR THEIR ORIGINS.THAT WILL NEVER HAPPEN!SERBS ARE A BRAVE NATION,WITH HONOUR AND HONEST PEOPLE.DONT YOU EVER LET ANYONE TAKE THAT FROM YOU,NOMATTER THE CIRCUMSTANCES....

TRULLY HONOURED TO BE YOUR BROTHER...
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PostPosted: 13 Feb 2007 13:01    Post subject: Reply with quote

robbie slater wrote:


red_knight wrote:
After the Yalta meeting (were Yugoslavia was 50% Soviet + 50% Allies, when Greece was 90% Allies + 10% Soviet), Stalin decided not to support the Greek communist guerillas (Yugoslavia was the main channel of the Soviet support) so after some delay, Tito closed the borders during the winter 1948-1949, and the Greek communists lost the Civil war against the Greek and British alliance.

In 1948, Tito became the first Communist leader to defy Stalin's leadership of the Cominform, he was one of the few people to stand up to Stalin's demands for absolute loyalty.


this doesn't make much sense to me. if tito worked under orders of stalin in winter 1948/49 and closed the greek borders, which was after the event in 1948 when tito defied stalin, then this goes to prove that cabron's theory (or whatever you want to call it) that tito and stalin remained friends. I don't know how true that is. could be though.



My brother, is not so simple...

The "resistance" against Italians, Germans and Bulgarians in occupied Greece is a very complicated story, as well as in Serbia.

When we fought the Italians of Moussolini in Albania (winter 1940-41) we almost destroyed them, and Hitler decided to attack Greece. Hitler wanted Greece to be neutral and out of the war, but Moussolini wanted to play hero and Churchill wanted to open another front in South Balkans to delay some more German troops.
So, on April 1941, Hitler's famous "Blitzkrieg" mechanised infantry attacked our north borders, we couldn't fight both Italians and Germans, and after 11 days, our army was surrendered.

After that, some Greek troops withdrawed to the mountains, and started organised resistance against the enemy.

The resistance, very soon, was manipulated by the 2 main political spheres of that time. The communists and the monarchists.

Zahariadis, the leader of Greek Communist party (KKE) had open link with Moscow, Stalin and Tito. They organised a very strong guerilla army (ΕΑΜ-ELAS) with Aris Velouhiotis as leader. They started operations about the end of summer 1941.
The monarchists had smaller army (EDES) but more help and support from the Allies, with Napoleon Zerva as leader. In EDES most of the members were ex-military officers, friendly to Britain and the King.
Also there were other smaller groups like EKKA (social-democrats), but sooner or later they were mixed either with EAM-ELAS or EDES.

Me personally i think that very few had really true "resistance" spirit.
Most of the guerillas members wanted to escape from the Germans or get rich from the Allies aid, or to get prepared for the time when the Germans would leave Greece. There are hundreds of stories about "resistance" actions, which main target was to take more supplies and money from the British, than to fight the Germans.

Ofcourse there were real patriots among them, but with small power.
A typical example is the "Gorgopotamos bridge operation" (25.11.1942).
The British wanted the "resistance" to sabotage a central bridge, and cut Greece in half, avoiding and delay Germans to transport troops and support to Rommel in Africa.
It was a very difficult operation, cos the bridge was very important for the Germans, and very well guarded.
Both EAM-ELAS and EDES, the first thing they asked from the British, was money !!!
Only when they paid them, they started planing the sabotage, and after some months, with "a little help from my friends" they destroyed the bridge.

The Germans ofcourse (like Serbia) they were killing 100 people for 1 German dead, and 50 for injured, when the 2 guerilla groups were storing gold and guns from the Allies, to take control of Greece when the war would end.

The funny thing is that, now in school, most of the guerilla leaders are named like "national heroes" ...

In the same time, the Germans started "Barbarossa" operation against USSR and divided Greece in 3 zones.

1. Athens, Thessaloniki, Crete and big towns (German Zone)
2. West Greece, East Aegean sea islands and mainland (Italian Zone)
3. Makedonia (except Thessaloniki) and Thrace (Bulgarian Zone)

Ofcourse, the "resistance" never fought Germans in open battle, and did only some sabotage or fighting the Italian chickens.

Anyway, all the above about "resistance" is my personal opinion, from the research i did my self. If any Greek have any objection, i am all ears.

After the Germans left Greece (October 1944) the 2 groups (EAM-ELAS / EDES) started fighting each other about the control of Greece.
During December of 1944, EAM-ELAS members foughted the British and Greek goverment army in Athens. (Dekemvriana).

From September 1944 there was the "Caserta deal" were both groups decided to get under control of "National Unity Goverment" of Papandreou, but many members of the communists never agreed.

So, after December 1944 there was another deal, the "Varkiza deal" where it was decided that both groups will be disarmed, total amnesty and the Greek army would take the control of the country.
The big majority of the communists never surrendered their arms (and they had a lot). Stalin and USSR officially stoped any support, but Tito continued to transport guns and ammunition through the mountains of Makedonia.
EAM-ELAS and EDES officially were disarmed, but the communists were organising the DSE (Dimokratikos Stratos Ellados) Democratic Army of Greece.

The Greek Civil War started at March 1946, when some members of DSE attacked the Police Station of Litohoro village near Katerini.

Against the communists, there was a "union" of ex-military officers, the Greek Army, nationalists, monarchists and the Police Force.

From March of 1946 untill October 1949 some of the worst pages of Greek history were written. Brother was fighting against brother, son against the father. Cruelties, massacres, chaos and disorder was reported by both sides.
During the winter 1948-1949 Tito decided to stop supporting the DSE, under the pressure of USSR and Britain.
It was the beggining of the end for the communists in Greece.
In October 1949, DSE lost the crucial "Battle of Grammos mountain" near the Greek-Albanian borders, and their members started to retreat in masses to Albania and Yugoslavia taking many prisoners and civilians with them.

Untill 1956 there were numerous reports about the existance of prisoners camps both in Albania and Yugoslavia.
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hools
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PostPosted: 13 Feb 2007 16:52    Post subject: Reply with quote

red-knight this is a perfect explanation.I agree 100% with you..
communists were fighting for future communist domination in greece(after german's retreat) and not for their country(there are some exceptions in that).also when they saw that they were losing lots of communist guerillas joined bulgarians and said "let's give the area of macedonia to bulgaria,because they are communists"
today lots of communists here, are asamed for that move...

generally ww2 was really a fucked up situation which caused many problems in the balkan area,even afterwards..
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PostPosted: 31 Jul 2007 18:53    Post subject: Reply with quote

For my brothers, few videos abot our grandfathers and our history... This is why we are proud to be SERBS!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oxw4jaz0LBo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YTA0SGgGerE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=osHNfR79HCE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AiMqGbRiye8
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