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Roots of serbian spirit on north terrace
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Сербо Макарид
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PostPosted: 08 Feb 2007 00:10    Post subject: Roots of serbian spirit on north terrace Reply with quote

In conversations with some Olimpiakos brothers I realised that many of them are confused about the political and ideological directions of Red Star fans: left, right, up, down... chetniks, partizans, nationalists, social partiots, etc.. To understand where the Red Star movement started, how the club was established, how the history of Serbs relates to the club, how the spirit of Serbia is connected to Red Star, have alook at this movie:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Qd9vkIfPvU
and a bit of literature..
http://www.brothersjudd.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/reviews.detail/book_id/1581/Eastern%20Appr.htm

First belgrade derby
Afterwards, in Belgrade emerged two football clubs: Red Star and Partizan. The first Partizan team consisted of 7 Croatian players (of former croatian nazi country ndh). They had the blessing of Tito who was a Partizan fan. In Belgrade, all those guys who had balls and were ready to rebel against the existing regime, went to the matches. They went to provoke Titos team and support Red Star. In their report 'A brief history, published in a Serbian supporter magazin KOP, even Partizan fans wrote that Red Star was more genuine Serbian club in that time, that is to say at the begining of the Red Star's founding (as the Partizan fans wrote). In their book 'The legends of Gravedigers"'(legende grobara), they wrote that Tito was at one point so provoked by Red Star's fan masses that he left the match. He swore that he would never ever go on a football match again.. The Partizan fans were so provoked that they started shouting: Gypsies, gypsies! This is the name Croats (with their poor filthy history) use when trying to provoke and insult Serbian people..
Over the years, Red Star fans adopted this name and reversed it: It became something of a cult, something like the guiding spirit of Belgrade so to speak, to accept the name and carry it . As a joke, Red Star fans brought, for example, a provocative banner to a match which read as follows: "The gypsies greet their champions".. By the way we won that first derby 4:3, although one of our players was sent of the pitch.

In that period Serbian historical values and traditions were neglected or abandoned: The Orthodox church, the Serbian monarchy, traditions, spirituality, culture, history, buildings, cities that formerly reflected Serbian's diverse society.. In that time people said if you can not glory the protector of your house (serbian saints) at least you can support red star.. The spirit of Serbia was kept alive in that hard time even through this emerging belgrade club wich presented, a daring and rebelling spirit of orthodox Serbs. That is the reason why we grew so big and our enemys hate us. Crying or Very sad

P.S>Maybe it is important to know that tito was fighting in first world war on austrian side against Serbs in Serbia.. Basicly he was tolerated and greeted, glorified till the end of the iron fence by everyone in the whole world because he was one of the founders of Non-Aligned Movement wich united all former colonies and controlled. Among the founders and leading countries of that movement were other english colonial countries Egypt, India, dutch South africa and temporary china.. After "the fall of berlin wall" yugoslavia lost its meaning for the rest of the world..
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PostPosted: 08 Feb 2007 07:35    Post subject: Reply with quote

Still you don't explain what most of Zvezdasi are in your post, but it sounds me weird that Olympiakos fans asked you if you're left wing - partizans - communists etc etc, because ALL Gate 7 fans they know the political situation of Crvena Zvezda and Delije, and me personal i agree 100%
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PostPosted: 08 Feb 2007 12:44    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Chetniks - Partizans rivalry and the background (or Mihajlovic - Tito if you prefer) is well known for someone who has knowledge of the Serbian history, and there are many similar things in this story with the Greek Civil War (1945-1949).

I wish i will have time, to write the story in brief, for the Greeks of the forum to have an idea and understand better the situation.

Tito meaby did many many wrong things and mistakes, but according to my opinion, the things could be much worst without him ...

(to be continued) ... Wink
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PostPosted: 08 Feb 2007 12:55    Post subject: Reply with quote

red_knight wrote:
The Chetniks - Partizans rivalry and the background (or Mihajlovic - Tito if you prefer) is well known for someone who has knowledge of the Serbian history, and there are many similar things in this story with the Greek Civil War (1945-1949).

I wish i will have time, to write the story in brief, for the Greeks of the forum to have an idea and understand better the situation.

Tito meaby did many many wrong things and mistakes, but according to my opinion, the things could be much worst without him ...

(to be continued) ... Wink


sorry brother but you are very wrong tito and communist party destroy serbia for 50 years more than turks for 500 years. and the things would have been way better without him.
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PostPosted: 08 Feb 2007 13:07    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brother, i want to focus in the similarities between the Greek Civil War and the Partizans - Chetniks conflict.

About Tito, i said only my personal opinion, but imagine Former Yogoslavia to be in a situation like Albania, or Bulgaria and Romania as far as the "Soviet Factor" was there.

Me also, i don't like communists and generally their system, but i must admitt (as historical fact) that Tito tried to make Former Yugoslavia to be as much indepented that could be.
Personally i want to make Greeks understand the situation in Serbia during 1941-1944.

as i said, to be continued... Smile
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PostPosted: 08 Feb 2007 13:08    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tito is the one who forbid Serbs to get back to Kosovo, and the one who let the albanians to start coming there. That fucking comunist is the worst thing that ever happened to Serbia!!! Fucking croat, had so much complexes against the Serbs! He is the main reason for the most of the shit happening today.
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PostPosted: 08 Feb 2007 14:50    Post subject: Reply with quote

for someone who is looking from a distance tito may look as a cool guy making yugoslavia independent from sovit union, but a fact is that is just a play bouth tito and staljin, they conflict was never real, tito made it just to make situation in wich it looks that war can brake up any second, because in that kind of situation is easy to rulle without any rules, so all the time tito was in great personal friendship with staljin.on the other hand thousands of serbs ended up in jails for just one word, or if someone report that you have something against the govermant you can end up in jail or dead without any trile or something like that, so they made big fear, so people were paranoid, just looking to survive that time.
yugoslavija was some kind of tamon zone betwin east and west, but in soviet interest zone, just as greece was in english interest zone.the comunist party was much stronger in greece than in serbia, but will of `allies` were stronger than anything ellse.i know that tito recived lot of greek refuges, from north, during the civil war in greece 1945/49. lot of them still living here, made families, i have some friends whos grand parents came in that period, there is one family where one brother was comunist ended up here in serbia, with his wife, the other was anti comunist.

as much as it looked that tito made yugoslavia independent from soviets, yugoslavia was killing serbian spirit, so for us the bottom line is that we dont look in yugoslavija as our country, most of prtizans were serbs, 98% of chatniks were serbs, those are the only anti anzi movements in occupied yugoslav knigdom, the others were nazi servants, the only problem was that partizan lidership was fighting for power, and against king, secrtely against serbs, after the war not so secretly anymore, so serbs died during the war serbs died after the war, our culture was destroied, our identety, and those are big strikes.
today lot of serbs dont even know words of our national anthem, so you can see how big problems left us comunist regime...
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PostPosted: 08 Feb 2007 14:56    Post subject: Reply with quote

at begining of this move it is said that generals over ruled the princ and monarchy, it is not completly truth, princ was rulling in the name of knig petar II, who was underage, so generals over rulled prince paul, and procalimed petar II the full rulling king, so they didnt over rulled the monarchy, just the prince paul who signed non atacking agreemant with germans
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PostPosted: 08 Feb 2007 16:13    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tito was a tottaly PIECE OF SHIT and CROAT! He was the one who renamed Vardarska to "Makedonija" by stealing the name of North Greece! If today this land's name is "Makedonija" it's thanks to him! red_knight no matter that we are friends i dissagree 100% with you!
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PostPosted: 08 Feb 2007 16:19    Post subject: Reply with quote

RedBull-7- wrote:
Tito was a tottaly PIECE OF SHIT and CROAT! He was the one who renamed Vardarska to "Makedonija" by stealing the name of North Greece! If today this land's name is "Makedonija" it's thanks to him! red_knight no matter that we are friends i dissagree 100% with you!

I ALSO AGREE WITH REDBULL.TITO WAS A PIECE OF SHIT..
FUCKING CROAT
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PostPosted: 08 Feb 2007 16:55    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree that Tito's "Yugoslavian" policy tried to brake the Serbian spirit destroy any Serbian nationalism or monarchism.
Also i do agree that 50 years of communism in Serbia was worst than 500 years of Ottomans ocupation. Tito was an enemy of the Serbian people.
Just like his Partisans, Ustasa, Nazis, Muslims, UCK etc.

As an amateur in Serbian history, please correct me where i am wrong...

On April 6, 1941, German, Italian, Hungarian and Bulgarian forces attacked Yugoslavia. The Luftwaffe bombed Belgrade and other major Yugoslav cities. On April 17, representatives of Yugoslavia's various regions signed an armistice with Germany at Belgrade, ending eleven days of resistance against the invading German Wehrmacht.

After Germany attacked the Soviet Union (22 June 1941), Tito called (4 July 1941) a Central committee meeting, was named Military Commander and issued a call to arms and communist revolution.

Tito's Partisans faced competition from the largely Serbian Chetniks, who were long supported by the British and the royal government in exile. After the Partisans stood up to intense Axis attacks between January and June 1943, Allied leaders switched their support to them. American President Roosevelt, British Premier Churchill and Soviet leader Stalin officially recognized the Partisans at the Tehran Conference.

The Chetniks were fighting against Ustasa, Nazis and Partisans. For tactical reasons, both Partisans and Chetniks were "co-operating" with the Germans, to hurt each other. The Germans dealed with them in the spirit: "The enemy of my enemy is my ... temporary friend".
In this mess, the British at the first months of the war, were supporting the Chetniks, because Churchill was personal friend of King Peter II and Prince Paul, who were in Egypt under British protection (as far as i remeber).
But afterwards they saw that Tito's Partisans were in better situation to make clinical strikes against the Germans, so they abandoned Chetniks and started to support the Partisans. From that moment, more or less, the fate of "Yugoslavia" was bounded in the Eastern Europe.
The Chetniks were about 30.000 fighters, when Tito had more than 200.000.
Their leader, Draza Mihajlovic was abandoned (he was captured, went under trial and executed in 1946), the Chetniks lost many battles from the out-numbered Partisans who were suported with tons of weapons from the Allies when the Germans were retreating.

When the war ended, Germans left, their Croatian "puppet-state" collapsed and the Red Army entered the "Yugoslavian" territory, but Tito's Partisans were the real controlers of the State.

Tito also supported the Albanian communist party of Emver Hodza and the Greek communist party, under Stalin's instruction.

After the Yalta meeting (were Yugoslavia was 50% Soviet + 50% Allies, when Greece was 90% Allies + 10% Soviet), Stalin decided not to support the Greek communist guerillas (Yugoslavia was the main channel of the Soviet support) so after some delay, Tito closed the borders during the winter 1948-1949, and the Greek communists lost the Civil war against the Greek and British alliance.
The Greek communist party for many years (untill 1956) named Tito as the main reason that they lost the war. After 1956, they decided that ... Berja (Stalins right hand) was the man that sealed their fate !!!
Laughing

After the elections in November 1945, Tito became the Prime Minister and Minister of Foreign Affairs of "Yugoslavia". In November 1945, a new constitution was proclaimed and Tito organized a strong army as well as a strong information bureau (the UDBA), in order to prevent Nazi collaborators actions. The Communist Party won the first post-war elections under "fair conditions", which united a country that had been severely affected by the war and successfully suppressed the nationalist sentiments of the peoples of Yugoslavia in favor of the common Yugoslav goal. (here we laugh)...

In October 1946, in its first special session for 75 years, the Vatican excommunicated Tito and the Yugoslav government for sentencing Catholic Archbishop Aloysius Stepinac to 16 years in prison for cooperation with fascists and forcing the conversion of Orthodox Serbs to Catholicism.

In 1948, Tito became the first Communist leader to defy Stalin's leadership of the Cominform, he was one of the few people to stand up to Stalin's demands for absolute loyalty.
Stalin took it personally–for once, to no avail. "Stop sending people to kill me," Tito wrote. "If you don't stop sending killers, I'll send one to Moscow, and I won't have to send a second".

The Yugoslav Communist Party was expelled from the association on June 28, 1948. This brought Tito much international recognition, but also caused a rift with the Soviet Union and triggered a period of instability often referred to as the "Informbiro period".
Tito's form of communism was labelled Titoism by Moscow, which encouraged purges against suspected "Titoites'" throughout the Communist bloc. The crisis nearly escalated into an armed conflict.

From this point of view, i think that the whole situation was in the spirit of: "The not worst, is the best" for "Yugoslavia's" fate the next years.
That's why i said that the things could be worst without Tito. USSR was ready to invade and establish a really Iron-Soviet tpye of goverment.

That's all folks ... sorry for geting you tired to read all that ... i wait for comments and discussion, thank you !!!

Rolling Eyes
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PostPosted: 08 Feb 2007 19:49    Post subject: Reply with quote

So during the II WW there was a German occupation as well as the "civil" war between chetniks and partisans. I do not believe that this term - civil - is adequate. Simply because it was a war between the forces of occupied Kingdom of Yugoslavia, so the army that was fighting the invaders, versus communists. Communists’ main aim was to establish “Dictatorship of the proletariat”, to overrule the government. And so it is a kind of civil war, but,…

So the leaders and ideologists of the partisan movement were directly controlled by the Soviets, attacking monarchy and Orthodox church. There are three main Serbian national symbols of the time and communists abolished all of them. There are: consciousness and awareness of the Serbian nation – communists were internationalists, led by Soviets and Stalin; Serbian Orthodox church – communists fought against religion; and monarchy – contrary to the “reds” believes. So the idea of communism is opposite of the idea of basic ideology of Serbian nation. Therefore it was, in years to come after the war, Tito’s main aim to destroy Serbian nationalism – also controls biggest nation with in Yugoslavia.

It is a complete paradox that the Serbs were the last of the ex-Yu republics to abolish communism – it was such devastating impact of titoism that we still feel consequences.

To go back to term civil war – so it was a struggle between Serbs and those who abolished main principles of being Serbian and were led by non-Serbs and above all Soviets. We say that the Serb who became Turk is worst than Turk – meaning he needs to prove and he is ruthless towards his own people. Same with partisans.

On another issue but in relevance to religion and Serbs, Bosnia is a great example of how much the church is important for Serbs. Those Serbs who were converted to Islam “became” another nation. Many were converted in Bosnia, which was last Serbian kingdom before the Ottoman rule. Without the church we would simply perish under the Turks. That is why it is important for the young generations to understand the importance of Orthodox Church, being believers or not there must be a respect.
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PostPosted: 08 Feb 2007 20:27    Post subject: Reply with quote

cabron wrote:
on the other hand thousands of serbs ended up in jails for just one word, or if someone report that you have something against the govermant you can end up in jail or dead without any trile or something like that, so they made big fear, so people were paranoid, just looking to survive that time....


the fact is that we were not the only ones to be treated like that. all other nations had the same treatment, some to lesser extent probably because they were less outspoken.

red_knight wrote:
After the Yalta meeting (were Yugoslavia was 50% Soviet + 50% Allies, when Greece was 90% Allies + 10% Soviet), Stalin decided not to support the Greek communist guerillas (Yugoslavia was the main channel of the Soviet support) so after some delay, Tito closed the borders during the winter 1948-1949, and the Greek communists lost the Civil war against the Greek and British alliance.

In 1948, Tito became the first Communist leader to defy Stalin's leadership of the Cominform, he was one of the few people to stand up to Stalin's demands for absolute loyalty.


this doesn't make much sense to me. if tito worked under orders of stalin in winter 1948/49 and closed the greek borders, which was after the event in 1948 when tito defied stalin, then this goes to prove that cabron's theory (or whatever you want to call it) that tito and stalin remained friends. I don't know how true that is. could be though.

@UL

I tend to agree with the civil war term. a civil war is defined as a war between political factions or regions within the same country. or a war between citizens of the same state. there were 2 factions fighting against each other during ww2. that's why I think it was a civil war. I believe we got used to not calling that a civil war as that's the way we were taught in school. you know the story, partizans were the only one fighting germans, chetniks were germanl colaborators blah blah blah. farkin' commis.

on the other hand, you may argue that it's not a civil war because the country was occupied by germans so there was no country at the time. but still, there was a 'conflict' between 2 factions and according to the definition it's a civil war. that's the way I see it. could be wrong.
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PostPosted: 08 Feb 2007 22:42    Post subject: Reply with quote

robbie slater wrote:
cabron wrote:
on the other hand thousands of serbs ended up in jails for just one word, or if someone report that you have something against the govermant you can end up in jail or dead without any trile or something like that, so they made big fear, so people were paranoid, just looking to survive that time....


the fact is that we were not the only ones to be treated like that. all other nations had the same treatment, some to lesser extent probably because they were less outspoken.



please if you want to talk about facts you have to use facts, i see you are corecting me and you are speaking about others, let us know how many of `others` ended up like that, i dont say that they didnt, but ...less, and more than less than serbs, another coincidence...i dont think so.

about relations tito-staljin it is not my theory, there is sources about it, but wait and see, some of soviet archives are being opend, serbian are not going to be opend for historians for a wile, but that day will come, and than you will see what i am talking about.
for example, few years ago russian historians published letter in wich tito asking staljin to officialy ask tito to enter yugoslavija(with red army) , tito belived that it is going to be good marketing trick, that staljin like needs his blessing for crossing the borders, tito was right on that, every day people must be thinking that tito is some important guy, who staljin needs to ask to cross borders, wich is funny of course.the fact is that tension was good for titos politic, and it never realy treated soviets in any way.


@ red knight
the numbers of soldiers of partizans and chatniks, are from the end of WWII, comunists had about 8000 of members before war in whole kingdom, it was never important political subject, but they had very fanatic members.in some parts of srbian lands partizans didnt even existed till the end of `43. or `44. or had very litlle soldiers.

one thing about war is important, most of fights were on theritory of todays serbia, and germans had some kind of rull that for every singl dead german kill 100 serbs, it was more than easy for comunists to scarifies thousands of serbian civilians, chatniks avioded that kind of victims when it is not necessary, or better say as much as it was posible to avoid
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PostPosted: 09 Feb 2007 07:04    Post subject: Reply with quote

one thing i want to ask is, what version of the history are you taught in school? are your textbooks/teachers biased towards the chetnik or communist side? are tito/mihailovic/milosevic portrayed in a positive or negative light? how is the war in the 90's talked about? and if there is a national curriculum, do teachers stray from it to put their own political opinion forward?
also how about the media, the world media turned against serbia and portrayed you as criminals during and after the war in the 90's, did the serbian mainstream media fold under the pressure and fall in line with the view that the goverment were all war criminals? in essence i feel croatia won the P.R. aspect of the war and that was vital in international support and in the outcome of the war.
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